PvM Direction/Changes Suggestion

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  • Hello,

    I'd like to start by stating that this suggestions come from a player who solely focuses on PvM. This means, in my view PvP isn't, or shouldn't have to, be the sole endgame. I'd also like to state, just for reference, I've played sg throughout the years, and through it's many changes.

    I'll now give my opinions/suggestions regarding a few topics.

    1) Difficulty of maps/Monster Damage:

    • Over the last years, especially the last year, I find PvM became very accessible and easy to do. This is a huge advantage for new players, as they can try to catch up older players in a faster, less difficult way. But, on the other hand, it also takes some value from progression in the game. You shouldn't only have to work hard for PvP items, but also for PvM items. Currently, only Enchanted Forest and Melley are hard instances, making you have to gear up properly with items and alchemy to clear them efficiently. A lvl 62 char, or ever lower at 55 or 42 can easily do all content up to beta, and even most beta stones and bosses (given he has a proper buffer). One of the reasons, is clearly how much damage was added to the game through weapons, mount skins, sash etc... In my opinion, monsters should be buffed to accompany how easy it became to farm. A lvl 55 mage can easily reach 8k+ crit on stones lvl 90, for example. Warriors even more. This makes it so that there is no proper sense of "progression" and for the best maps to be over crowded. Also, resistances vs environment are practically useless PvM wise, which imo is sad as the last content we got was around it.

    2) Incentive to lvl up above 100/105 and Enchanted Forest:

    • Another aspect of the game that I'm not personally a fan of, is how going past 100/105 has more downsides than upsides. At level 100 you can clear Erebus, Hell Run and Ice Run which are some of the best income in the game, and the best solo income for sure. Levelling to 115 or 120 will just enable me to poison the bosses and use 115 armour. But, I give up on the opportunity of farming moonlights with my character properly, to farm stones for changers on beta etc... This leads me to Enchanted forest. It isn't a map design for farming but expeing. If, let's say, five people are there trying to do stones, no one will have a good time, to say the least. I think it's more than time for a proper farming map for high level players.

    3) Gear and Melley+Hydra:

    • Lastly, I'd like to mention the thing that probably saddens me the most. After being done with full superclass alchemy, which isn't that hard nowadays, the only thing left for a PvM player would be to upgrade to Full Mythical. This does bring added damage, but for what is that damage needed?! It's a big investment with no proper return, in my eyes. It makes me question why should I bother doing Melley at all. Stable profit wise, better things to do. With Hydra, which can be done by a good character+ buffer, it's only something people do for S skills and then are done with it. It feels more like a PvP addition than a PvM addition. This said, I'm glad with the choice of the items used to make the tickets, as it made Soul Stones worth something.

    In conclusion, I'd just like to see more actual content design for PvM and linked with PvP needs. All PvM gear, all gear actually aside from 115 armors+9 and 90 shoes +9, are easy to acquire. I'd love to see real challenges to be done both solo and with guild mates but associated with gear progression. I always looked at SG as this server where reaching a goal was actual rewarding, and I hope to continue to do so!

    Disclaimer: I'm aware some of this opinions are unpopular, especially point one. But, I feel like all sides should have a voice. I'm also aware people who want harder pvm content are a minority, and when the team releases something hard to do a bunch will complain, which is bad for business let's say. I just ask for more content for those who'd like to have different challenges and upgrades to look forward to.

  • 1) You can't go on Beta maps at 60. Having higher damage and hence browsing the initial content fast is the only way a server that is 12 years old can gain players on 2021 while at the same time have the necessary funds to provide new contents and keep running the service.

    2) At 110 you can still farm in Beta having the exact same drop rate of a level 90. Even 115. We changed how the drop formula works months ago so you are not penalized for being the same or some levels above your target.

    3) Mythic is meant to be a pvp part more than a pvm part. Same for S skills. They were designed to cover the fact that too much resistance is ingame and skills were dealing 300 damage.

    We are open to suggestions, if some runs are not profitable enough we can increase the value and the drop rate but i am afraid you are right, people who want harder pvm content are indeed a dying breed, you can't have a hardworking server and a populated server at the same time.

  • I agree on the reason behind the suggestions and at the same time I agree that a server too hardcore can't have any appeal nowadays. That's probably because metin became a game appreciated mostly by players that started playing it 10 years ago (when the metin's population was very young) and now still like it but, after a decade, they became older, they made a family and/or got a job and have only a few hours per day to spend. Or probably just beacuse people changed. Or both.

    That said, I guess that the pvm system, wich i really appreciate (and I usually don't like pvm), could be a bit more "progressive" in terms of rewards per pvm level contents. The idea should be, in my opinion, that the more you character grows up the better it should farm.

    For example, I had the feeling that lvl 100 is a way better pvm spot that 115. In fact, at lvl 115 a player can only have a better armour but: 1. he looses much of the drop of the very profitable beta maps (for example, from the lvl 105 metins - the only ones from beta maps that keep dropping something - a lvl 115 character has a way worse drop than a lvl 100, or at least that's what I noticed); 2. he doesn't gain any profitable content that's not already opened to lvl 100 players. I also see many of the people that I know that prefer to remain at lvl 100-105 because it's not worth to level up: that's, imo, a bit weird and could be slightley changed to make the leveling up process more usefull in pvm too.

    Obviously no criticism, just an exchange of points of view.

  • wait, what is beta???

    It's thunder/cape/bay...that maps mate (I used to call them beta maps).

    Coming to the suggestions, to make it worth to level up over 100 and increase the dmg and the speed of the character, I would suggest to:

    - reduce the nemere cooldown to 30 min - 1 hour looks very much and like this - even if you can do that with a lower level character - at least it would be worth to levl up, make more dmg, be faster and make an other ice run. Also, expecially now with the mythic alchemy, the alchemy demand increased but the supply is the same as before;

    - increase the drop of razador - the reward is pretty low considering that the keystone sometimes is only 60kk worth and the chest drop mostly crap stuff (maybe an addiction of souls stones or spirit stone 50% as chest's reward could be good considering the high demand of such items);

    - increase the gold drop of erebus - considering the cost of the entry for 2 character and the investment to build 2 character, the reward doesen't look so appropriete imo;

    - increase the channels of enchanted forest - like this 115 players won't miss the beta maps too much.

    That's just a few ideas wich I accept are not perfect or even totally wrong since my experience and knowledge of the game is still low. So I'd like some older player or GM to make some considerations about or better suggestions if mine are not well on point.

  • I'm all up for increasing overall pvm difficulty as I stated before.

    Gear with very good rarity and good stats is more accessible than ever before and for the most part it is completely overkill for the content we're facing(with some exceptions of course).

    The damage of players has been increasing a lot in the last year and we will most likely get some more in some shape or form(like Zodiak weapons for example) and I feel like the monsters stats should be tinkered with to compensate.

  • I'm all up for increasing overall pvm difficulty as I stated before.

    Gear with very good rarity and good stats is more accessible than ever before and for the most part it is completely overkill for the content we're facing(with some exceptions of course).

    The damage of players has been increasing a lot in the last year and we will most likely get some more in some shape or form(like Zodiak weapons for example) and I feel like the monsters stats should be tinkered with to compensate.

    I'm not totally sure that making the high lvl contents just "harder" will solve (itself) the problem of players that prefer to stay al level 100 for beta maps or even lvl 70-80 for the plagued run, because like this the players would be pushed, even more, not to focus on high lvl contents, because it will require an enourmous investment without paying it back.

    On the contrary, probably, making the high lvl contents harder could work only if the reward was noticeably more profitable than the lower level contents.

    Also you should consider, imo, what Shadow correctly pointed out about hardcore servers:

    people who want harder pvm content are indeed a dying breed, you can't have a hardworking server and a populated server at the same time

    I would surely prefer to find a compromise between an harcore server and a populated one than play alone. I don't think that the old metin2's population have anymore enough time to spend to build a character wich will be probably ready to join ("join", not be good at that) the end game pvp and pvm contents only after many months or even years.

    Making the game just "harder" might reveal itself a too simplicistic solution. I would focus, instead, on making it more "progressive" in terms of balancing between efforts and rewards (wich doesn' exclude to be also "hard").

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not contesting your idea, I understand it but I'm just trying to consider every variable.

  • Hello again! In the spirit of this thread I've thought of a few suggestions that hopefully please most people and, above all, improve game quality. This post will only focus on the possibility for future content, lvl 115+ content and my hopes of what a new dungeon would introduce.

    1) Enchanted Forest monster level and possibility for new farm map:

    • As mentioned above by Vanyu2, I'd suggest increasing the level of the monsters in Enchanted Forest (would be the same as this hypothetical farm map) so even people who are level 120 have no problems with drops, and could potentially have a place to farm moons.
    • I think, as Enchanted Forest was design to be a levelling map (if I remember correctly), the addition of a farm map for level 110/115 would be beneficial for the server. This map, should have similar difficulty and drops as Enchanted. However as more stones would be available, the drop rate of lvl 75 weapons should be decreased. Why?! At the moment rarity (except for Legendary) lost all the value it used to have. Not to mention, too many high average damage weapons are being farmed and sold, which sort of removes the purpose of switching these weapons for use (not considering use for sash).
    • I'd actually would already consider lowering the weapon drop on these stones as of now, maybe increase rate of the alchemy cores the stones drop to balance it.

    2) Creating of a new Bonus Adder and Switcher for the future:

    • Given metin2 is such a old game, I find it's specifically important for each map/dungeon to have a different purpose, especially when we consider level gear progression. Why would a map for lvl 115 have same/similar drops as a map for lvl 90 (Beta)?! I'd purpose, when new gear is added to the game, this gear is for lvl 105 (Zodicac Wep) and 115 and above. This will create an additional incentive for players to level up. I think for all level 105+ (including existent lvl 115 armours) a new Adder/Switcher should be added to Enchanted forest and Possible new farm map. This would replace the existent blue switchers on those stones. It seems to me this is a good way to reward players who progress further into the game, and make certain players less lazy. Would also give a specific purpose to Enchanted and make it completely different from Beta. I think PvM players should also have to work for stuff like Talismans.

    3) Addition of a new helm for PvM (maybe new belt?!):

    • So, as we all know lvl 100 helm was changed for the damage to be only applied to PvP, as initially intended. This left us with using level 60 helm for PvM. This is okey, but I really would rather have a new high level helm to grind for with better stats. Which stats you might ask?! I'd keep the 10 block or maybe enhance those block to 15 and add HP to it. Definitely NO strong vs monster or any damage increase stat. I thought about the possibility to suggest monster resistance, which would enable classes that not Sura to have more sustain for places like Enchanted, but it kinda seemed lazy. I'd much rather prefer having Elemental resistances to have a bigger part in PvM. (aka take a larger percentage on the dmg formula).
    • This helm would also be for 105+ and be switched with this "new" changers.
    • Maybe a new belt with monster resist option? (I just really think we have plenty of damage as of now. Would rather have 5 monster resist on a belt than 5 monster dmg).

    4) Thoughts about Moonstone and it's place in future item enhancing:

    • Not much to stay from my part, but I think any upgrade item that is used for a PvM item should be dropped in PvM content. This said, so we keep the uniqueness of Moonstone, I'd suggest a similar item (Sunstone maybe?) to be created for future items that involve PvM. This item should be drop in a dungeon (Zodiak/Erebus) with a low chance, and probably used both for +8 and +9 on these items.

    Final Thoughts:
    I'd suggest the path for PvM to be more about being able to sustain damage than to deal enormous quantities of damage. Or, for states like accuracy to negate the potential of a boss blocking an attack. I also think any dungeons added in the future should be IP blocked and design for more a party of 3 or more players.

  • Suggestion Related to Stones +3:

    • Give them a decent price to sell to general store (like stones from +0 to +2). They have 0 value in the current market and, no one who knows math will try to use them to make +5 stones, especially with Pouches dropping from Hydra.

    Best regards,